Suggestions for Full Ace Updates

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Jay
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Re: Suggestions for Full Ace Updates

Postby Jay » Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:18 pm

Would like to be able to make the ball curve a lot more than it already does when using the slice.

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Re: Suggestions for Full Ace Updates

Postby solarisaint » Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:38 pm

The side spin is natural and mimics real ball physics , They do need to raise the topspin a little , but other than that, Full Ace has great ball mechanics..

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Re: Suggestions for Full Ace Updates

Postby darktower » Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:32 pm

First of all, Full Ace is a great very realistic tennis simulation. Ok, the grapic is simple and the animations are weak. But the biggest problem are the less statistics and posibilities in career mode.

Here are a few suggestions what you could add/change (i know that a lot of my list is allready in the todo List):
- Head 2 Head
- Player Statistics at Tournament (currently only at rankings possible)
- new Ranking only after tournament (currently after every day)
- Ranking split in 100 per side (2000 players on one side is terrible)
- Ranking searching Player
- Ranking only from special country
- Ranking only points/points to defence next tournament/next points for ranking
- Player Statistics Ranking Breakdown, Lose/Win-Year/All(split in atp/Callenger/Future), Activity(like now), Title/Finals
- Player Statistics Ranking History (every week)
- Player Statistics highest Ranking (with year/week)
- Statistics Weeks Nr.1
- Player Statistics Asses/Breaks/Winner,.. of whole saison/carrier
- Player Profile Strengh/Weekness (for every player)
- more development at players depending on win/lose secret talent and age
- posibility to influence development of own player
- Implement prize money for tournaments
- more Animations
- Editor 3-4 different Courts (for Quali,first rounds, Finals, against star player...)
- Editor more different sounds (more/less people)
- Davis Cup
- Double (at least for Davis Cup)

A lot of this changes wouldn´t be that complicate because the nessacary statistics are allready somehow count in the game but you cannot see them.
It would be great if the one or other feature will come in a update.

(sorry for my bad english, it´s not my main language)

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Re: Suggestions for Full Ace Updates

Postby kschoice » Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:11 pm

darktower wrote:First of all, Full Ace is a great very realistic tennis simulation. Ok, the grapic is simple and the animations are weak. But the biggest problem are the less statistics and posibilities in career mode.


Thank you for joining the forum and for your suggestions. I take note of them for the future.

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Re: Suggestions for Full Ace Updates

Postby Tony2512 » Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:04 pm

Hi, now it's 6 month ago... no news? what can we expect for the future? if nothing, then it would be great to mention this explicit, so we do not think about it anymore ;-)

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Re: Suggestions for Full Ace Updates

Postby Federer » Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:41 pm

In real life, if a player serves an ace or a clean winner incorrectly called out, and the player challenges, the player is then awarded the point. In FA, the point is replayed.

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Re: Suggestions for Full Ace Updates

Postby kschoice » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:18 am

Federer wrote:In real life, if a player serves an ace or a clean winner incorrectly called out, and the player challenges, the player is then awarded the point. In FA, the point is replayed.


This has already been discussed here : viewtopic.php?f=7&t=637
To sum it up, the challenge rules leave the decision of awarding or replaying the point entirely up to the umpire. So, actually, either in real life or in Full Ace, the decision isn't always one way or another.
In Full Ace's case, the umpire is computer-simulated, and therefore not 100% accurate. As a result, there will be times that it seems instinctively obvious that the point should be awarded, but he will call for a replay. I prefer it that way than the other way around.

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Re: Suggestions for Full Ace Updates

Postby Federer » Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:55 pm

kschoice wrote:
Federer wrote:In real life, if a player serves an ace or a clean winner incorrectly called out, and the player challenges, the player is then awarded the point. In FA, the point is replayed.


This has already been discussed here : viewtopic.php?f=7&t=637
To sum it up, the challenge rules leave the decision of awarding or replaying the point entirely up to the umpire. So, actually, either in real life or in Full Ace, the decision isn't always one way or another.
In Full Ace's case, the umpire is computer-simulated, and therefore not 100% accurate. As a result, there will be times that it seems instinctively obvious that the point should be awarded, but he will call for a replay. I prefer it that way than the other way around.


I don't know how much tennis you watch but I watch a fair bit and a clean winner or an ace is always awarded the point. Trust me on this lol. The discretion bit comes in when the other player has touched the ball, and the umpire has to decide whether the call affects the players swing. On a computer game I highly doubt the call will affect the players shot so a case could be made to always give the point. However certainly for a clean winner or an ace the point should not be replayed.

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Re: Suggestions for Full Ace Updates

Postby kschoice » Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:02 pm

Federer wrote:The discretion bit comes in when the other player has touched the ball, and the umpire has to decide whether the call affects the players swing.


I find it hard to find official rules on this matter for some reason (apart from this page : http://www.ehow.com/list_6718020_tennis ... enges.html), but it is my understanding that your statement is actually false in some cases. For (a very exaggerated) example, imagine a very slow, looped ball, but the player has to run from the other end of the court to get it. As soon as it is called out, there is every chance that the player will stop running, and give up on hitting it, which doesn't mean he couldn't have returned it, has there been no call. I concede, this is hardly the same scenario as a 130 MPH ace. But in the case of a slower serve, with a big slice, I think a similar thing could happen.

In the end, the game is configured to try and rule all cases in a unified fashion. So it may happen that a point is replayed when it shouldn't be, but most of the time the decision should be accurate. If the discrepancies are too high, then something should be done about it. But as there hasn't been a massive feedback on that matter up to now, I was under the impression that it worked rather correctly. If you keep encountering problematic cases, please save the replay(s) and send it (them) to me. I'll try to make things better.

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Re: Suggestions for Full Ace Updates

Postby Jay » Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:37 am

I think for the last half decade I've always seen aces that were incorrectly called out by the linesman as "correction, ball was good!" > Point awarded to server or; server challenges call > ball was good > point awarded to server.
And I am only talking about very obvious aces where the returner clearly had no play on the ball. However in full Ace I have always had to replay the point.

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Re: Suggestions for Full Ace Updates

Postby Federer » Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:42 pm

Jay wrote:I think for the last half decade I've always seen aces that were incorrectly called out by the linesman as "correction, ball was good!" > Point awarded to server or; server challenges call > ball was good > point awarded to server.
And I am only talking about very obvious aces where the returner clearly had no play on the ball. However in full Ace I have always had to replay the point.


Yes I consider myself somewhat of a tennis fanatic and I am 100% certain what happens regarding a challenged (or as you say corrected) clean winner or an ace. I have watched tennis regularly for the last 10 years. I know @kschoice brings up the example of a very slow ball which the player didn't bother to hit, which is an extreme but fair example. However I think that the instinct of the player to hit the ball and the reaction time to the out call is such that this in practice never happens. If the player doesn't touch the ball the point should not be replayed. Anyone who watches tennis regularly will know that is the case. I am not slurring anyone who does not do this by the way. People have busy lives and at the moment tennis is in a poor state! Hate to be unpatriotic but Murray is a terrible world no 1. He is a pusher through and through (and so is Djokovic).

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Re: Suggestions for Full Ace Updates

Postby Federer » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:28 am

Ok, here is my suggestion. Take the element of chance out of the game.

In real life, whether an attempted shot comes off depends on the skill of the player, and so it should be in a tennis simulator.
If I understand the mechanics correctly, in full ace you can do a shot, do nothing wrong, but still the ball goes out because an imaginary dice landed on the wrong number.

If I think of a match I would like to recreate in a tennis game, one would be the 2009 Australian open semi Nadal vs Verdasco. Verdasco was just going for big shots close to the line and being pretty successful against monster defence. But if one tried this in full ace, wouldn't Verdasco's 'consistency' stat make this impossible?, or at the least out of the hands of the actual player. This is my bugbear; imo the player needs to be in full control over whether a shot goes in or out. Of course plenty of shots should still go out. But it should always be because of what the player did wrong.

The stats of each player should be (as they mostly are now) how powerful they can hit, how much topspin/backspin they generate etc.
Get rid of the consistency stat and replace it entirely with timing and positioning. If you're in a bad position, the duration of good timing is reduced. There is of course more detail that would need be gone into, but this seems the way for a simulator to go in my opinion.

I see on a different thread about serving, you said that if you take luck out of serving someone is bound to master the process. But imo, if you make the process difficult enough that is not the case. And if someone does get very good at it, then they deserve to be an excellent server. Again the issue now is that there can be no such thing as a 'clutch' server like a Pete Sampras, because the ability to hit an ace is taken somewhat out of the players hand.

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Re: Suggestions for Full Ace Updates

Postby kschoice » Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:09 pm

I understand where you're coming from. Actually, all tennis games I can think of work the way you are saying (more or less, but in any case way more than Full Ace).

The point on which I would disagree with you is that if I removed the element of chance altogether, and due to the limitations of simulating something as complex as hitting a tennis ball with the limited samples of inputs from a pad controller, any reasonable gameplay I can come up with for a newcomer will eventually result in an experienced enough player being able to hit any ball exactly the way he wants.
That doesn't mean he would be just an excellent server, it means that each and every one of his serves would land at max speed exactly on the line of his choice. And he would almost never have the use for a second serve.
During rallies, you say timing and positioning should be enough, but still, if I remove the element of chance altogether, it means that in any situation, an experienced player will eventually learn exactly how to compensate the effects of those and therefore almost never make an unforced (or even forced) error.
Both those things happen in many games I know of.

While I would of course never argue that there is anything we could qualify as genuine randomness in real-life tennis, I believe there is a phenomenon that can be modelled by randomness. In real-life, even the top pro players still make mistakes. Even on serves, where they control every aspect of the shot. Even Pete Sampras, as you mention him, couldn't hit an ace at will, or else he would have never lost a serve game in his entire career.
I would argue that even when the ball is good, they make mistakes, in that the ball doesn't land exactly at the spot they pictured in their mind. That is why they take some margin and don't always aim for the lines. Most of the time, that is not because they make blatant positioning, timing or technical errors, they are just too good for that. It is because they have to hit hard and fast to match the level of their opponent, and at those speeds they are bound to make some mistakes. It seems to me you are also overlooking the point that the incoming ball's speed and spin have a great impact on your own shot's precision.
The frequency, amplitude and variance of these mistakes I chose to model with randomness. Let me explain how it works by considering a given, well-hit shot, with all parameters fixed except for the exact spot we're aiming at. For starters, let's say we are aiming for the centre of the court, right between the serve line and the baseline. In this case, there is obviously 100% chance the ball will go in, even though it will not land at the exact aiming spot. Now moving closer to, for instance, the right sideline, it will remain at 100% until you get close enough. Then, it will progressively decrease. The point at which I would consider you 'made a mistake', even though your interaction with the pad was great, is if your aim is that close to the line that your chance of the ball staying in drops under a reasonable 'consistency rate' (which depends on your strategy).

For example, in the match you are referring http://uk.reuters.com/article/tennis-open-statistics-idUKSYD43273720090130, Verdasco made a total of 76 unforced errors over the course of 385 points played, which means almost 1 point in 5 ended on an unforced error from him. This was obviously the strategy he opted for, in an hope that winners would outweigh errors, which they did (95), but it wasn't enough (contrary to what I hoped :wink: ) in order for him to win. It means that Verdasco decided to lower his 'consistency rate', knowing that his usual one would not be enough to contain shots from an opponent like Nadal. In Full Ace, you are free to opt for the same strategy, and can definitely get some success. But there will be times when your ball will land on the wrong side of the line, even if you didn't do anything blatantly wrong with your pad per se, but because you are deliberately choosing to hit fast balls, which has a negative impact on your consistency, close to the lines, which lowers your margin of error. If this happens too often for you to have a chance at winning the match, e.g. your consistency rate is too low, is when I would argue you are 'making a mistake'.

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Re: Suggestions for Full Ace Updates

Postby Federer » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:54 pm

Thank you for a extremely well reasoned and thought out post, and your point about modelling real life uncertainty with randomness hits the nail on the head, and I find myself persuaded by it. You are clearly a very smart guy. I'm still right about Hawkeye though :wink:

On a separate point, I wonder if you have noticed that currently the only viable slice volley is a drop volley, because any other slice volley bounces high and sits up for the opponent. If you prepare before slice volleying (I have occasion done it by instinct) the player actually does a more realistic slice and the ball stays lower and goes quicker through the court, which is usually the object of a slice (non drop) volley.

Having said that, I know some slice volleys are done because they are easier to control and it can be done quite conservatively.

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Re: Suggestions for Full Ace Updates

Postby kschoice » Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:35 pm

Federer wrote:Thank you for a extremely well reasoned and thought out post, and your point about modelling real life uncertainty with randomness hits the nail on the head, and I find myself persuaded by it. You are clearly a very smart guy. I'm still right about Hawkeye though :wink:


I'm glad I convinced you, and thanks for the praise :wink: . However, I will readily admit that it is pretty hard to convey this idea to any player that is new to the game, and I am very much open to any advice on that aspect. Maybe some lessons in the tutorial, but I have the feeling it would be hard to keep them from being tedious. About hawk eye, I have yet to find some time to test the issues you mentioned, as I have been working on other things (now on facebook :D https://www.facebook.com/Full-Ace-tenni ... 117231360/).

Federer wrote:On a separate point, I wonder if you have noticed that currently the only viable slice volley is a drop volley, because any other slice volley bounces high and sits up for the opponent. If you prepare before slice volleying (I have occasion done it by instinct) the player actually does a more realistic slice and the ball stays lower and goes quicker through the court, which is usually the object of a slice (non drop) volley.

Having said that, I know some slice volleys are done because they are easier to control and it can be done quite conservatively.


You probably have a point there, and there are many things wrong anyway with the volleying part of the gameplay as of now. I have plans to review this part of the game in the process of creating the new version I am working on.


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