AI player

[PatrickR]

The more I play, the more I get the impression that the AI player needs a major rewrite. Not only there is the problem of the flying superhero at the net documented here, no, this guy is so unbelievably good that in a virtual two and half hour match I played yesterday he N-E-V-E-R missed the court left or right during rallies. And no, I'm not kidding - I was paying special attention to it since I already had the impression the match before. Today was no difference. This is a fundamental flaw.

Add to that the ever perfect anticipation of this "robot" who never fails to react to any kind of situation, gets never caught wrong-footed or is late on the ball and often enough also knows at the exact moment the ball leaves your racket that it will go wide and doesn't move an inch further and you won't have that much fun playing anymore... This guy desperately needs to get more "human".

Really, I liked this game from the start as it was challenging and felt authentic, but once you're getting used to it and have more time to concentrate on the details you'll see the weirdest things and start to wonder if 0.5.2 wouldn't be a more appropriate version number. The potential for a very good game certainly is still there, but these are annoying things that need to be sorted out.

[kschoice]

The more I play, the more I get the impression that the AI player needs a major rewrite. Not only there is the problem of the flying superhero at the net documented here, no, this guy is so unbelievably good that in a virtual two and half hour match I played yesterday he N-E-V-E-R missed the court left or right during rallies. And no, I'm not kidding - I was paying special attention to it since I already had the impression the match before. Today was no difference. This is a fundamental flaw.

Add to that the ever perfect anticipation of this "robot" who never fails to react to any kind of situation, gets never caught wrong-footed or is late on the ball and often enough also knows at the exact moment the ball leaves your racket that it will go wide and doesn't move an inch further and you won't have that much fun playing anymore... This guy desperately needs to get more "human".

Really, I liked this game from the start as it was challenging and felt authentic, but once you're getting used to it and have more time to concentrate on the details you'll see the weirdest things and start to wonder if 0.5.2 wouldn't be a more appropriate version number. The potential for a very good game certainly is still there, but these are annoying things that need to be sorted out.

I can understand that you'd get frustrated at some aspects as I do too sometimes about certain things I haven't had the chance to address properly yet. You have to remind that there isn't a big team working behind that project.
However, I think that compared to any other tennis game around, Full Ace can't be regarded as an alpha version as you seem to imply. I remain dumbfounded at this kind of harsh criticism, though not because it would lack ground. I just fail to see any similar criticism to mainstream games which flaws are far far greater when compared to real tennis in my opinion, but seem to have legions of fans who play them blindly. I'm gonna take that as the fact that Full Ace is close enough to the real thing that real tennis fans think it's worth expressing their discontent.
Programming an AI to make mistakes that seem genuine is probably one if not the hardest thing to achieve in terms of AI. The AI in Full Ace is even more difficult to put up because the ball can bounce actually anywhere on the court, with all kinds of spin, which requires a great adaptability to all kinds of situation.
But at least, even as of now, Full Ace's AI makes some mistakes, which cannot be said of most other tennis games. I and probably other players as well would even argue that a share of those mistakes are unrealistic and reduce the game's challenge as of now.

[Kyros]

hi,

The more I play, the more I get the impression that the AI player needs a major rewrite. Not only there is the problem of the flying superhero at the net documented here, no, this guy is so unbelievably good that in a virtual two and half hour match I played yesterday he N-E-V-E-R missed the court left or right during rallies. And no, I'm not kidding - I was paying special attention to it since I already had the impression the match before. Today was no difference. This is a fundamental flaw.

I think the AI is good enough for me now except around the net. The AI made mistakes, and there is no need to play full length matches to see it. During carreer, i play with 2 games per set and AI mades mistakes during rallies. Of course, I had to force a little bit the AI to make it and it often worked. I play with realistic AI and full speed ball.

Add to that the ever perfect anticipation of this "robot" who never fails to react to any kind of situation, gets never caught wrong-footed or is late on the ball and often enough also knows at the exact moment the ball leaves your racket that it will go wide and doesn't move an inch further and you won't have that much fun playing anymore... This guy desperately needs to get more "human".

about anticipation of the AI, I agree but I have a solution, play online...

[Hami]

I also agree with the problem of anticipation and I think that the AI makes enough mistakes now.
I think the problem is that it does not take enough risks.
Now that I really know the game, I can beat a top player with an average player just because the player does not play on his strengths as a real top player would.
The evolution for me would be to have more type of AI players, based on their strengths : defensive player, offensive baseline, serve and volley, all-arround, slice lover ( ) ...
I know it's huge work, a huge step but the AI has to tend to that in my opinion.
And a huge would also to change the players stats to make them close to reality. But it would come from us. Unfortunately I don't have the motivation right now.
(PS : I really don't like the new lift animation !)

[PatrickR]

@kschoice: I didn't mean to be harsh with my criticism. I don't say that the whole game feels like an alpha or beta but some aspects seem to be done a little bit "half-heartedly". It's been a long long sime since I've bought a (mainstream) tennis game so I can't tell about their strenghts and weaknesses but I can say that overall I haven't played a better tennis game than FAT since Great Courts II on the Amiga back in the early nineties (!) and in terms of shot-making of the human player you've certainly done a fantastic job. And while it would be nice to have the chair umpire announce the scoreline or a more tv-style presentation in matches this would never compensate for lacking depth in gameplay.

Nevertheless, for a game with its relatively small fanbase the career mode and thus the AI player is one of the most important aspects of the game so I'd rather see progress made in that department than adding of minor features like e.g. a reverse cam in replays. It's understandable that if you don't have the manpower it's hard to make significant progress in certain areas in a short space of time, but you have to at least start somewhere.

Programming an AI to make mistakes that seem genuine is probably one if not the hardest thing to achieve in terms of AI.

Well, if I had a character with perfect anticipation, positioning and decision-making then I would struggle to make mistakes, too. By the way, I'm not necessarily talking about unforced errors here. You will never get a free point on your serve only because your opponent was guessing wrong. Passing your opponent at the net like you see it in real life is next to impossible in this game.

Full Ace's gameplay is very singular in the fact that it's not entirely up to you whether a shot goes in or out.
As in real life, you're aiming for a desired target, and depending on several parameters, the ball will land in a wider or narrower area around this target. These parameters include :
_ character abilities (precision, consistency)
_ position in relation to the ball
_ incoming ball speed
_ attempted shot's difficulty and speed
_ timing

Basically this reads like that you should have all the necessary tools already there and if you get the AI player to be less than perfect when it comes to "position in relation to the ball", "attempted shot's difficulty and speed" and "timing" that you theoretically should get some "genuine" errors for free. Right now you only seem to have black or white - either the AI is perfectly placed and performs an optimal shot or he completely fails to play the ball even if he is close to it whereas in real life a player would stretch or slide in a desperate attempt to get a piece of it with a mishit or a forced error being the most probable outcome.

[PatrickR]

I think the problem is that it does not take enough risks.

Is the AI taking risks at all ? Even with the aggressivity set to "real life" I regularly have higher percentages for points won on 2nd serve than on 1st serve. Have you ever seen a return winner from your AI opponent on your second serve ? I can't remember one. Does he ever rush the net after a good attacking shot ? Nope. I once played a virtual four hours, four set match and the AI numbers for winners and unforced errors were averaging well below 10 per set. This guy is not aggressive. This setting only seems to affect the speed of his shots, not the overall style of play.

The evolution for me would be to have more type of AI players, based on their strengths : defensive player, offensive baseline, serve and volley, all-arround, slice lover ( ) ...
I know it's huge work, a huge step but the AI has to tend to that in my opinion.

Yep, another thing that's missing which could enormously add to the depth of the game. As of now, if you know one AI opponent, you know all of them.

[Hami]

In an earlier version, the AI liked to rush to the net and take risks but it was too much. Now it seems that the AI player just doesn't want to make any mistakes.
One problem is also that the key to beat players is most of the time to hit hard on their backhand, even if the player has a better backhand than forehand. It gives monotony to the game.

[kschoice]

@kschoice: I didn't mean to be harsh with my criticism. I don't say that the whole game feels like an alpha or beta but some aspects seem to be done a little bit "half-heartedly".

That's how I took the 0.5.2 part. I'm glad it was an over-interpretation on my end.


I hope you'll see the latest version is a step in the right direction. The AI definitely takes more risks, makes more winners and unforced errors in the games I played. You may also find that I greatly reduced the hitting zone on shots, reducing weird volleys like the one you posted a screenshot of. Though I'm afraid it's still not enough yet to hit realistic passing-shots.
Different kinds of play are definitely something I want in Full Ace. Though not in a strict way... Internally, the game would see a player as 60% this, 30% that, and 10% something else, for instance, if you see what I mean.